Starting Over Talk - Peer Coaching Support Site

Debby wrote:

QUOTE:
I believe your comments apply to most people, not just Allison. I wonder if you may be a mental health care professional...judging from your post or just a kind person who sees the pain Allison lived through.

I am the latter, Debby, though I have worked at a state mental institution when I was much younger in college, but I am also the product of a childhood like Kim's. I spent many years stuck in the behavior patterns that you see in children who have been sexually and emotionally abused and battered since a very young age. It was quite extreme, though I have heard worse.

I think it was a love of reading that opened the door to possibilities for me that a different life than the one I had as a child was possible. In the beginning, reading gave me information that enabled me to be a bit of a cameleon to be a people-pleaser, also, hoping that if I was good enough at it, someone would love me and be kind to me. I first learned to please men as a way to survive; it got me off the street at a very young age. It took me many years to see the lie that was my life, and many more years to discover who I really was. Still more years to see my own value as a human being.

With people in general, but particularly females, I was painfully shy. I decided the only way to get over my difficulty with other people (translated: non-sexual partners) was to force myself to meet and reach out to them. I pretended to be comfortable meeting people and started attending meetings with a group where new members were greeted at a local restaurant. After a while, it began to feel comfortable, too.

I guess because of my own childhood I became a student of human behavior very early. Even though it was at first to mimic what I viewed as *normal* human behavior, as I matured, I also sought life information on a multitude of levels, in order to gain perspective and to try to fine tune my own life. I loved Starting Over because it gave me an opportunity to see how others evaluate various behaviors. I sought education that I could possibly apply to my own life by seeing what happened on SO.

QUOTE:
While I have the utmost empathy for Allison and have been an avid supporter of hers on this board, I wonder if you think there are any people out there in this world who have been spared damage of some sort from their parents? No one is perfect, so you end up with imperfect parents. You have parents who are abusive, overly protective, emotionally unavailable, overly demanding, overly critical, overly indulgent, mean, hateful, or not present at all.

Aren't we all a product of our upbringing?

Yes, in fact, what I have learned is that we are all a product of our upbringing, none of us are perfect, nor did any of us have perfect parents or upbringings, and we do the best that we can with the tools that we have. I also have learned that each of us has a choice and some control about the outcome of our own lives, and the sooner that we accept that, the sooner we can get on with the business of living, including setting about understanding our deficiencies and trying to develop the skills that we both lack and desire.

Having said that, I do think that some parents get it more *right* than others, but each of us have something there that we find needs improvement. My parents definitely got it badly wrong in a lot of ways. At the end of the day, however, my childhood only tells a part of my story, the part over which I had little or no control and no choice. But I have been choosing my path for a long time since; I just didn't see those choices as mine for a long time. I was still limping around, looking for someone to love me so I could fill up my own emotional bucket. It's only when one stops looking backward and dwelling about the have/have nots of their childhood and focuses on their today and what choices they want to make for their lives now, does it really get any peace and happiness. Don't misunderstand me; it is important to acknowledge and understand where we came from and build a healthy perspective about what that was. But at some point it is necessary to grow from that and look forward at where one wants to go, unless you want to stay stuck in the past.

With kindest regards, Donna E.

Debby wrote:

QUOTE:
I believe your comments apply to most people, not just Allison. I wonder if you may be a mental health care professional...judging from your post or just a kind person who sees the pain Allison lived through.

I am the latter, Debby, though I have worked at a state mental institution when I was much younger in college, but I am also the product of a childhood like Kim's. I spent many years stuck in the behavior patterns that you see in children who have been sexually and emotionally abused and battered since a very young age. It was quite extreme, though I have heard worse.

I think it was a love of reading that opened the door to possibilities for me that a different life than the one I had as a child was possible. In the beginning, reading gave me information that enabled me to be a bit of a cameleon to be a people-pleaser, also, hoping that if I was good enough at it, someone would love me and be kind to me. I first learned to please men as a way to survive; it got me off the street at a very young age. It took me many years to see the lie that was my life, and many more years to discover who I really was. Still more years to see my own value as a human being.

With people in general, but particularly females, I was painfully shy. I decided the only way to get over my difficulty with other people (translated: non-sexual partners) was to force myself to meet and reach out to them. I pretended to be comfortable meeting people and started attending meetings with a group where new members were greeted at a local restaurant. After a while, it began to feel comfortable, too.

I guess because of my own childhood I became a student of human behavior very early. Even though it was at first to mimic what I viewed as *normal* human behavior, as I matured, I also sought life information on a multitude of levels, in order to gain perspective and to try to fine tune my own life. I loved Starting Over because it gave me an opportunity to see how others evaluate various behaviors. I sought education that I could possibly apply to my own life by seeing what happened on SO.

QUOTE:
While I have the utmost empathy for Allison and have been an avid supporter of hers on this board, I wonder if you think there are any people out there in this world who have been spared damage of some sort from their parents? No one is perfect, so you end up with imperfect parents. You have parents who are abusive, overly protective, emotionally unavailable, overly demanding, overly critical, overly indulgent, mean, hateful, or not present at all.

Aren't we all a product of our upbringing?

Yes, in fact, what I have learned is that we are all a product of our upbringing, none of us are perfect, nor did any of us have perfect parents or upbringings, and we do the best that we can with the tools that we have. I also have learned that each of us has a choice and some control about the outcome of our own lives, and the sooner that we accept that, the sooner we can get on with the business of living, including setting about understanding our deficiencies and trying to develop the skills that we both lack and desire.

Having said that, I do think that some parents get it more *right* than others, but each of us have something there that we find needs improvement. My parents definitely got it badly wrong in a lot of ways. At the end of the day, however, my childhood only tells a part of my story, the part over which I had little or no control and no choice. But I have been choosing my path for a long time since; I just didn't see those choices as mine for a long time. I was still limping around, looking for someone to love me so I could fill up my own emotional bucket. It's only when one stops looking backward and dwelling about the have/have nots of their childhood and focuses on their today and what choices they want to make for their lives now, does it really get any peace and happiness. Don't misunderstand me; it is important to acknowledge and understand where we came from and build a healthy perspective about what that was. But at some point it is necessary to grow from that and look forward at where one wants to go, unless you want to stay stuck in the past.

With kindest regards, Donna E.

Debby wrote:

QUOTE:
I believe your comments apply to most people, not just Allison. I wonder if you may be a mental health care professional...judging from your post or just a kind person who sees the pain Allison lived through.

I am the latter, Debby, though I have worked at a state mental institution when I was much younger in college, but I am also the product of a childhood like Kim's. I spent many years stuck in the behavior patterns that you see in children who have been sexually and emotionally abused and battered since a very young age. It was quite extreme, though I have heard worse.

I think it was a love of reading that opened the door to possibilities for me that a different life than the one I had as a child was possible. In the beginning, reading gave me information that enabled me to be a bit of a cameleon to be a people-pleaser, also, hoping that if I was good enough at it, someone would love me and be kind to me. I first learned to please men as a way to survive; it got me off the street at a very young age. It took me many years to see the lie that was my life, and many more years to discover who I really was. Still more years to see my own value as a human being.

With people in general, but particularly females, I was painfully shy. I decided the only way to get over my difficulty with other people (translated: non-sexual partners) was to force myself to meet and reach out to them. I pretended to be comfortable meeting people and started attending meetings with a group where new members were greeted at a local restaurant. After a while, it began to feel comfortable, too.

I guess because of my own childhood I became a student of human behavior very early. Even though it was at first to mimic what I viewed as *normal* human behavior, as I matured, I also sought life information on a multitude of levels, in order to gain perspective and to try to fine tune my own life. I loved Starting Over because it gave me an opportunity to see how others evaluate various behaviors. I sought education that I could possibly apply to my own life by seeing what happened on SO.

QUOTE:
While I have the utmost empathy for Allison and have been an avid supporter of hers on this board, I wonder if you think there are any people out there in this world who have been spared damage of some sort from their parents? No one is perfect, so you end up with imperfect parents. You have parents who are abusive, overly protective, emotionally unavailable, overly demanding, overly critical, overly indulgent, mean, hateful, or not present at all.

Aren't we all a product of our upbringing?

Yes, in fact, what I have learned is that we are all a product of our upbringing, none of us are perfect, nor did any of us have perfect parents or upbringings, and we do the best that we can with the tools that we have. I also have learned that each of us has a choice and some control about the outcome of our own lives, and the sooner that we accept that, the sooner we can get on with the business of living, including setting about understanding our deficiencies and trying to develop the skills that we both lack and desire.

Having said that, I do think that some parents get it more *right* than others, but each of us have something there that we find needs improvement. My parents definitely got it badly wrong in a lot of ways. At the end of the day, however, my childhood only tells a part of my story, the part over which I had little or no control and no choice. But I have been choosing my path for a long time since; I just didn't see those choices as mine for a long time. I was still limping around, looking for someone to love me so I could fill up my own emotional bucket. It's only when one stops looking backward and dwelling about the have/have nots of their childhood and focuses on their today and what choices they want to make for their lives now, does it really get any peace and happiness. Don't misunderstand me; it is important to acknowledge and understand where we came from and build a healthy perspective about what that was. But at some point it is necessary to grow from that and look forward at where one wants to go, unless you want to stay stuck in the past.

With kindest regards, Donna E.

KPW1956 wrote:

QUOTE:
teklawgirl wrote:

QUOTE:
I think with Allison it is the legacy of her childhood that has taught her a whole collection of defective skillsets that end up doing exactly the opposite of what she is seeking. By that, I mean that, as the child of an alcoholic abusive parent, she didn't get the kind of healthy attention and affection from her parents that children deserve to have unconditionally. These children often develop a *hole* in their emotional buckets. Consequently, they keep trying to fill it through attention-seeking behavior, primarily through people-pleasing behavior, including self-sacrifice. All this accomplishes, unfortunately, is to leave them still empty, and highlights to them that they aren't valuable enough to be *made* happy.

It is also not unusual to see passive-aggressive behavior in abused children and *martyrdom,* because they were not afforded an opportunity to learn to be assertive to get their needs met and feel protected. Other neglected children become over-achievers, trying to prove their worthiness to be loved. A well-raised adult feels loved unconditionally *and* experiences expectations that they have to learn skills to enable them to become strong adults. Along the way, they will internalize whatever sense of self and self-love that they experienced as children. For those who did not get that from parents, they will have to develop that on their own, which is extremely difficult, but achievable.

Don't be too hard on Alison. It's not easy to unlearn these kinds of things. Iyanla is on point with calling her fake, in order to try to show her what she is doing wrong. She needs to value herself and speak her feelings and ask for what she genuinely wants, rather than to disguise and bury them under *things* that she does, hoping that people will love her for doing them, rather than who she is.

Try to set aside what she is actually doing for a moment, and try to recognize the real person inside of her, with real feelings that she is trying to learn how to express, and what Iyanla is trying to teach her through the lesson. Try to set aside the image of the whiny, manipulative adult woman for a minute and see who is really there. That is a confused and frightened little girl in a big woman's body, who is trying to learn to love herself unconditionally and to reach out to others appropriately. For the moment, she is stuck back in her childhood at the point that she never really progressed, and she is saying, "I hurt. Love me. Show me that I am lovable." If she can only find her way to see that she is lovable and love herself, she will be able to fix the hole in that bucket and find the peace that she needs.

With kindest regards, Donna E.

Great Post Donna!

I think you are on target!

Wonderfully well thought out and insightful post! Kudos! Nothing like the "university of life!"

Debby wrote:

QUOTE:
Donna E, I enjoyed your post about Allison. I believe your comments apply to most people, not just Allison. I wonder if you may be a mental health care professional...judging from your post or just a kind person who sees the pain Allison lived through.
While I have the utmost empathy for Allison and have been an avid supporter of hers on this board, I wonder if you think there are any people out there in this world who have been spared damage of some sort from their parents? No one is perfect, so you end up with imperfect parents. You have parents who are abusive, overly protective, emotionally unavailable, overly demanding, overly critical, overly indulgent, mean, hateful, or not present at all.

Aren't we all a product of our upbringing?

Debby,
We live in a fallen world and the damage continues from one generation to the next. There are people lucky enough to have been raised by mentally healthy parents and loved unconditionally.
And they have a very difficult time comprehending the damage that is done to children everyday. They don't get it. It's a blindspot they have and they usually don't want anyone to enlighten them on how cruel the world can be. They want to maintain their innocence. Can't blame 'em, but they are not the people you will call if your baby dies from SIDS or your husband's business goes bankrupt. Only people who have been in pain can help others in pain. That is why Christ lived as a human...so He would know our pain.

So much of the damage done in generations past was just because people didn't know any better. Much of it was unintentional and most of the children that grew out of that didn't know they were damaged. I don't know what excuse the present generation is going to use to justify the damage they inflict everyday on their children. This age we live in has soooo much information available to all people in this country on why you do what you do and how to fix it and how to prevent doing it to your kids. There are hotlines, websites, shelters, parenting classes, baby classes, human development classes. Help is out there--It's all around us.

The women in the SOH had great courage to apply and interview to be there. I applaud them. But Miss Allison thought she was going to swoop in, and spend a week talking to the women about her cancer, and swoop back out. She thought she was coming in to be the "elder", the "sage", to give the women advice. This is what she told a North Carolina newspaper in an interview (google--you'll find it). After reading her interview, it really put into context a lot of what we see of her on the show. She's condescending in the confessional because she's a "Graduate". She's imparting "Wisdom". Maybe she makes everything about her because the producers told her they wanted to feature her and focus on her cancer. That kind of talk would feed her pride and ego.

But an almost 40yr old woman who balls up her fists and rubs her eyes like a little girl when she's crying and gets angry at her coach for "ruining my birthday" because group sessions happened and tasks were given and tough subjects were addressed---This is a woman who is fighting with every thing she has to NOT GROW UP!
She is long past the age when she can continue to blame her life on her parents. She's been out of the "nest" since 1986 when she left home (North Carolina) and moved to New York.

Being a product of one's upbringing does not abdicate one from taking responsibility for their own life---that includes choices and the consequences those choices bring.

Debby wrote:

QUOTE:
Donna E, I enjoyed your post about Allison. I believe your comments apply to most people, not just Allison. I wonder if you may be a mental health care professional...judging from your post or just a kind person who sees the pain Allison lived through.
While I have the utmost empathy for Allison and have been an avid supporter of hers on this board, I wonder if you think there are any people out there in this world who have been spared damage of some sort from their parents? No one is perfect, so you end up with imperfect parents. You have parents who are abusive, overly protective, emotionally unavailable, overly demanding, overly critical, overly indulgent, mean, hateful, or not present at all.

Aren't we all a product of our upbringing?

Debby,
We live in a fallen world and the damage continues from one generation to the next. There are people lucky enough to have been raised by mentally healthy parents and loved unconditionally.
And they have a very difficult time comprehending the damage that is done to children everyday. They don't get it. It's a blindspot they have and they usually don't want anyone to enlighten them on how cruel the world can be. They want to maintain their innocence. Can't blame 'em, but they are not the people you will call if your baby dies from SIDS or your husband's business goes bankrupt. Only people who have been in pain can help others in pain. That is why Christ lived as a human...so He would know our pain.

So much of the damage done in generations past was just because people didn't know any better. Much of it was unintentional and most of the children that grew out of that didn't know they were damaged. I don't know what excuse the present generation is going to use to justify the damage they inflict everyday on their children. This age we live in has soooo much information available to all people in this country on why you do what you do and how to fix it and how to prevent doing it to your kids. There are hotlines, websites, shelters, parenting classes, baby classes, human development classes. Help is out there--It's all around us.

The women in the SOH had great courage to apply and interview to be there. I applaud them. But Miss Allison thought she was going to swoop in, and spend a week talking to the women about her cancer, and swoop back out. She thought she was coming in to be the "elder", the "sage", to give the women advice. This is what she told a North Carolina newspaper in an interview (google--you'll find it). After reading her interview, it really put into context a lot of what we see of her on the show. She's condescending in the confessional because she's a "Graduate". She's imparting "Wisdom". Maybe she makes everything about her because the producers told her they wanted to feature her and focus on her cancer. That kind of talk would feed her pride and ego.

But an almost 40yr old woman who balls up her fists and rubs her eyes like a little girl when she's crying and gets angry at her coach for "ruining my birthday" because group sessions happened and tasks were given and tough subjects were addressed---This is a woman who is fighting with every thing she has to NOT GROW UP!
She is long past the age when she can continue to blame her life on her parents. She's been out of the "nest" since 1986 when she left home (North Carolina) and moved to New York.

Being a product of one's upbringing does not abdicate one from taking responsibility for their own life---that includes choices and the consequences those choices bring.