Starting Over Talk - Peer Coaching Support Site

One more thing -

Do you remember reading about Elphaba not allowing any touching below the waist? And, then when she was sleeping one day, Fiyero touched her and felt 'something there'.

Now, in Vinkus, the talk of cold and hot anger. And, Elphaba thinking that she has the capability of hot anger - and goodness knows she has the cold anger mastered! Do you think it is possible that these are allusions to someone who is both gendered? (Would that be a hermorpadite?) WHAT would be the purpose of that, if so???

Actually I was thinking along the hermaphrodite lines too......????? I get the feeling that there may well be several little "loose ends" that are never tied up! I hate that!!!!

I was, indeed, thinking Morrible was a fish and talked to Liir. I think they are also getting us to the conclusion that Yackle has been a part of their lives since infancy and has ulterior motives and is in cahoots with the Wizard and Morrible???

I never thought about the hermit being Feyero....but I certainly have thought we haven't heard the last of him!!!



Yeah........it's okay if it's "just us chickens" as my Grampa used to say!!! I'm enjoying the discussion too!!!

Well Grizz - I know how the monkeys fly. Let's just say, PETA would have a field day with Elphaba!

I know that this is supposed to be a story about good vs evil. But, I don't think it is such a clear cut case of good/evil. It seems to be that each person has both within them. Some do good - for evil purposes. Some do evil with the best of intentions. (Could anyone be more destructive than Nessa in all her self-righteousness? And, if Elphie is so evil then why is it that she seems doomed to fail at everything? If she was so evil/powerful then wouldn't she be more successful. Is she evil or is it that she voices what others are afraid to say or do? Or Frex who conveniently ignores Melana's infidelity as long as he is able to go off on his 'missions to convert the heathens'. Or Sarima - who acknowldeges and ignores the obvious as it suits her needs. Who would knowingly let the sisters, Two through whatever number are tolerated as a haren at first, then later when Fiyero is gone as an unpaid staff of servants - takes lots of people to run a fortress!

Also, I continue to feel like there is an air of Nazism in the background. Relocation camps, youth camps, the stormtrooper guards, etc.

I read the post by Moonchild in another thread and I had never thought of the irony of Elphie's name or of her destiny regarding that legend and water.

Regarding Yackle - (Jackal!) Jeezalu! I am thinking that she could be 'the Wizard' in disguise? Also, I have a feeling that, just as Nessa may not be Frex' child perhaps Elphie is the child of that mysterious stranger - also 'the Wizard'.

And, the mysterioius ominous little green bottle of Elixir that Melana had taken. And, now, at this point in the story the little bottle appears again, but in a very offhanded way. That mysterious stranger gave her that bottle of elixir.

So many questions - I have just gotten to the part where the house lands on the Wicked Witch of the East - Nessa!

Where are you up to?

Yep Luna.............I'm at the funeral now. Probably finish it up tonite in my insomniacal tradition!!!!! Yes, I make up words!!!!

I agree, the point is that good/evil are within each of us....what will we choose to do with either????

To me, most of life is about NOT going to extremes, but being balanced. Hmmmmmm..........more balance in these character's lives would have made life actually a joy!!

Well, Grizz, I finished the book. Knowing the outcome beforehand still does not make it any more acceptable.

I did enjoy this book - but found bits of of 'repulsive'. I am a great lover of animals (and Animals!) and was very upset at the treatment of both.

Did think it was interesting that Boq - who everyone else kind of thought was a wimp/loser/insignificant ended up being the one who really was happiest of all. Aaaah! Shades of high school!

So, what do you think? Do you think Witchie-Poo is dead? Or merely in another state of being right now? Destined to return in the sequal - Son of a Witch?

Hi Luna and Grizz. I am into my second reading of Wicked and am In The Vinkus right now. I enjoyed reading both of your thoughts on this book. I read this years ago when it first came out and am reading it again before I read Son of A Witch, just as a refresher. When Son came out, I did not remember that she had a child, because the book does not make it clear, it is just assumed that Liir is her son, birthed when she was staying at the mauntry with Fiyero being the father. Son of a Witch is all about Liir on his quest to find his half sister Nor... Sarima and Fiyero's daughter.

Just some random thoughts here: Upon reading this book again, it seems that Turtleshell was Nessarose's father, not Frex. She was having the affair with Turtle and became pregnant when Turtle was staying with them and Frex was about preaching. I also believe that the son Shell was born after Turtleshell died and was named in his honor. So perhaps if Shell is normal, then Frex is the true father, while Elphaba and Nessarose were fathered through affairs? Then who would be Elphaba's father? Someone we weren't introduced to, but Nanny did mention that Melena was more or less a "hussy" (nice way of saying it.)

Good vs. Evil - I see alot of Elphaba trying to do the right thing and Galinda (before becoming Glinda) being not so nice. Sometime evil is used for the greater cause??? Like when Elphaba went to kill Madame Morrible (who was responsible for killing Goat) in her Animal rights cause.

As for the hermaphrodite suggestions - in the beginning when Elphaba was born, it even made that suggestion that the handmaids did not know what sex she was. It mentioned them saying at first that it was "another willful boy" and to drown it, but then one of the handmaids wiped at the genital area (3 times) and just assumed that some tissue dried near the vaginal area. And that is why she never let Fiyero touch her below the waist.

Well, those are some of my thoughts for now. I am going to get back to reading.....